MysticalMirror
I'm the reason threads go off topic
Behold The Mystical Mirrors Gaze. [H:1]
Posts: 131
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Post by MysticalMirror on Nov 30, 2005 3:10:30 GMT -5
*Sighs* I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this as Religious debates seem pointless...All people have different opinions and are entitled to them however I suppose I'll say my piece. Am I a Christian? Yes. Would other Christians think of me as a christian? Probably not. The reason being that I don't conform to thier ideals of what I should ro shouldn't do. I'm no preacher. I will give others a chance to find God in thier own way and if they need help they may come to me. I believe churches are full of nuts. I believe the only true way to be a christian is to follow ideals left by Jesus. Ironically most churches go against this. What are churches about? Money. Plain and simple. Some of them help thier fellow man but most of them are as Zade said...And I will not dispute that because it's truth. Some of the worst people I've ever met in my life were so called Christians. They believe they've got thier go to heaven free card because they spit at people who do not follow thier beliefs...Jesus preached Love...God wishes for those who are here to know Him and know His love...Yet these people do not follow that belief...They do what they need to do to live thier happy normal lives while spitting in the faces of everyone else who doesn't believe in what they believe in. Yes there are some christians who are wonderful people...But most of those that I've met would rather hurt you than help you. They fall to human nature and blame it on God...This enrages me...If they truely wish to preach the Word of God then perhaps they should fix thier own lives before they try to tell other people how to live thiers. It's an annoyance that never seems to end. More bloodshed because of different opinions in the name of God...But it's truely not about God anymore then...It's about human beliefs...As I said before...They do what they want and they blame it on God...But yeah...Burn this post down and spit on the ashes if you'd like...I just felt like getting my opinion thrown in the mix. I doubt I'll post here again as I've already explained to Ave that I don't wish to get involved in this...Cause me and him have debated it before..It never ends.
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Post by Kaleb on Nov 30, 2005 3:34:27 GMT -5
Woo, an excellent account of another side of Christians, and Christian oppression. (Glad I'm not inna south) The main reason I distanced myself from Christianity, and probably the main reason so many people hate it, is because Christians are thingys. Bam! Hit the nail right on the head. Being the child of divorced parents (SINSINSIN!), I'm very familiar with this, myself. <SNIP> While your facts about Dover aren't quite what happened there, it still gives a good indication of the ignorance of your preacher. Oh, and about New Orleans, too Don't kid yourself, you know the sin that your preacher was referencing, one of the worst sins of all: Being Black. (The Public that surrounds me are all dyed-in-the-wool Hyper-Christians that can recite a thousand verses and ALL carry different versions of the Bible in their bookbags, many that contain the original Latin text, ect, ect) However, I suspect none of them can -read- the Latin version, which basically was in Latin because it gave the priests supreme power as far as interpretation goes. But then that not a very nice person Luther came and ruined the excellent Catholic setup. <SNIP> About missionaries and third world countries. As Ave often mentions, since God is apparently omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, we have to make the logical inference: He created people to fail, to burn in hell for all eternity. Which, when you realize God basically helped the Jews with an easy existence for the Old Testament, doesn't seem that out of character. He favours some people over others. Loving I disagree. <SNIP> Christian Oppression. No need to hide this, or pretend it doesn't happen. Religion cannot exist in an environment of acceptance and free thought. It depends on tradition. Ceremony and preaching are the blinders that keep the horse of humanity on the "right track", lest it begin to think for itself and perhaps even throw off its yoke. <SNIP> ARE YOU SAVED, SON? Well nuts, I'm set for life. Glad those 5 minutes of Christian Water Torture spared me an eternity in hell. You're absolutely right though, Zade. "God" doesn't give a nuts about if you're a good person or not, it's all about appeasing him. That "love and peace" stuff is really just to draw you in, I guess. That? That's magical right there. Yeah. That sounds really loving and...and nice...yeah... A much more emotional and hands-on criticism of Christians, but it certainly has the ring of truth to it. Bravo. Now, I'm gonna end with an excellent quotation I stumbled onto a little while ago. Applies very much to what Zade's said here. "Belief. Belief shifts. People start out believing in the god and end up believing in the structure." -Terry Pratchett, in Small Gods
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Post by Silas on Nov 30, 2005 17:17:19 GMT -5
I am happy, I kept myself out of this head bash successfully.
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Post by Avelon on Nov 30, 2005 21:14:38 GMT -5
I am happy, I kept myself out of this head bash successfully. 1.) No you didn't. 2.) Which part of the thread, if not all of it, are you referring to as a 'head bash'?
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Post by Silas on Dec 1, 2005 0:43:01 GMT -5
Yes, yes I did. Because if I truly entered, the thread would have become a head bash, but I didn't, so it didn't, meaning it never existed for me to get into.
But now I have to get out. Must get out. There is no escape but I have to get out!
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Post by Kaleb on Dec 1, 2005 1:40:30 GMT -5
Poor Arilan basically has taken an undefendable position: defending religion in a society that has outgrown it. So, why don't you give it a shot?
Also, you called it a head bash without your participation, then said it would become one with your participation, so I have to ask: What the hell is a head bash?
Seriously, this is something I enjoy debating, even though it is essentially a pointless exercise. If you have not of yet questioned your own beliefs (if you subscribe to Christianity, or most/all other organized religions, this is almost certainly the case), it is unlikely I will be able to persuade you to do so. That said, I would love to have more people to bat this back and forth with.
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Post by Silas on Dec 1, 2005 8:50:18 GMT -5
I have questioned my beliefs, then I just gave up on questioning and believing. Things are a bit different now. However, "society" has not outgrown "religion". Both those terms are too generalized to be significant.
And my definition of a head bash is when two or more people of opposing beliefs come into a verbal conflict and neither will change their beliefs, but will still rip at the other until all are completely angered and frustrated.
I guess I will get into it, but I can't promise I will go back and read it all. That's the problem with these things, if they take off before you bother to get on, it's hard to find the will to grind through all the muck to catch up.
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Post by Arilan on Dec 2, 2005 13:00:33 GMT -5
I...I can't....I am SO sorry! Zade, Kaleb etc etc. You have actually, seriously mad me cry right here in front of my computer. I am SO SORRY that you had to have those kind of Christian experiences! That is the worst kind of crap in the world, and you're both totally right. That kind of action has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a Christian. Not in the least way. In fact I honestly can't even begin to understand how someone can think they're a Christian while acting/thinking/etc like that. It kills me.
As for what a Christian is, I'm with Mystical Mirror. He's got it right. He really does. Do you want to know the most basic rule/creed of both me and my church: "Love God, Love people". That's it. I don't walk around with a Bible, I don't have more than like three verses memorized. I don't care about skin color or political standing or lifestyle or....sexual preference, or anything. Most of my friends aren't Christians and several of them are gay or bi and I'm not trying to change that about them. But I am still a Christian. Anyone shocked yet? I swear I'd kill to get you lot to come ot my church just once.
BUT, Ave did make a point I want to reply to. Yes, I do believe that my faith is the one true faith and that all the rest are wrong. That doesn't make me intolerant. Just because you believe in something else doesn't mean I'll hate you or run you out of town or kill you. I am tollerant of other religions, but that doesn't mean I have to believe they're right, nor does it mean I have to disbelieve my God when he says that there is only one true way to him. Believing something is the truth, doesn't mean I'm intolerant of everything else. Just because I believe that I exist doesn't mean I'm intolerant of somebody else's beliefs that I do not. I hope they at some point come ot see the truth, but I'm not about to punch them in the face to try and force them to see it my way.
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Post by Kaleb on Dec 2, 2005 15:47:47 GMT -5
Now, I appreciated the sentiment, but these people might contend that they're the Christian, and you aren't, and the bible might just agree. (Paul was sort of an not a very nice person, both pre and post conversion.) Now, let me give you a quick little example: Which one of these is the better man? The one who acts this way because he feels it's right, or the one who does so out of fear of a higher power? No, your feeling that your belief is correct doesn't make you intolerant or a bad person. However, your refusal to consider that your belief may be wrong and the other beliefs may be right makes you closed-minded. This is an inherent trait in every Christian I have ever met; I feel it's required to be a true believer in any religion. (Except perhaps the weird ones, like Unitarianism.)
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Post by Avelon on Dec 3, 2005 1:17:08 GMT -5
BUT, Ave did make a point I want to reply to. Yes, I do believe that my faith is the one true faith and that all the rest are wrong. That doesn't make me intolerant. Just because you believe in something else doesn't mean I'll hate you or run you out of town or kill you. I am tollerant of other religions, but that doesn't mean I have to believe they're right, nor does it mean I have to disbelieve my God when he says that there is only one true way to him. Believing something is the truth, doesn't mean I'm intolerant of everything else. Just because I believe that I exist doesn't mean I'm intolerant of somebody else's beliefs that I do not. I hope they at some point come ot see the truth, but I'm not about to punch them in the face to try and force them to see it my way. First and foremost, I did not say you were intolerant. Intolerance is the difference between me burning a cross on your front lawn and not. What I DID say was that you are arrogant. As much as you may loathe to admit it, you're kidding yourself when you say yours is the only true faith. To call 'all the rest' wrong is to call your own wrong, because, and read carefully, all religions are the same!Does it honestly matter what name you give to your God? Yes, give to, not are given to by. Religion is a creation; I stop short of calling it a fabrication only as a courtesy to you and your faith. Do you think it matters if it's Heaven or Valhalla, Hell or Tartarus? Yaweh or Zeus, Satan or Loki? Does it matter who the martyr for all of humanity was, or how they martyred themselves? No. No, it doesn't. It's our ancestors' fault that there are multiple religions, and I'll be d**ned - literally - if 'God' really cares whether or not you were taught to burn an offering to him or tap your head on the floor three times and intone 'Dies irae'. Moving on, my original - and as yet unanswered - question is why do you believe what you believe? Kaleb asked this too; much more bluntly (in those words, actually) than I. It seems to me this is one of the questions/points that you've (deliberately?) avoided answering/replying to. If you want to debate, let's debate! If you want to piddle around, wringing your hands and saying 'Oh, how terrible that you should know only wolves in sheep's skins', then I'll thank you to be honest with me so I can stop wasting my time. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself what makes you believe in God? Was it impressed on you? Did you witness a miracle? You said you need there to be a God; is it just an insecurity issue? Life is full of uncertainties, but not *everything* you don't have an immediate answer for or solution to has to be tied directly into God, does it? To put it plainly, what I'm asking you is this: What convinced you that God exists, and more to the point, that Christianity's take on God is the correct flavour of higher power? Once you can answer that, the next step is asking yourself why you DO believe - what keeps that faith flowing, despite everything?
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Post by Silas on Dec 3, 2005 4:58:33 GMT -5
The Christian should be nice to people not out of fear of going to hell or retribution from God, but rather because he wants to honour God and His word. He shouldn't be doing it to justify anything, he should just do it.
I learned this acronym from a Christian friend of mine. JOY. And to get that, you have to serve Jesus, then Others, then Yourself. If you try to put yourself first, you aren't going to have any joy.
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Gostie
Worthy to be consumed by Monkeys.
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Posts: 51
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Post by Gostie on Dec 3, 2005 13:23:48 GMT -5
This debate is not so relevant to me because I live in Britain and, in the words of Douglas Adams:
But, having said that, I feel that much unpleasantness could be avoided if the majority of the religious population were Sikhs, or at least shared the Dharmic view of "all religions being pathways to God." (Surprised that an atheist like myself took that from my Sri Lankan father?)
It is a strange trait of tolerant people (among whom I would like to count myself) that they are unable to tolerate intolerance. The KKK or the Nazis tend to be viewed as much worse than others who's crimes are similar, but not based on predjudice. (Please note that I am not calling anyone here intolerant, I am merely musing on Avelon's post earlier where he mentioned it).
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Post by Jest on Dec 4, 2005 5:21:22 GMT -5
I'm gonna stay out of the actual debate bit. But to those saying Christians are thingys it's not true. The thingys are just d**n louder. The retards you label Christians, the ones saying "Hurricanes killed the sinners" should all be shot. Purely cause they don't have a freaking clue what the hell is going on. I've met many Christians like this, and I usualy tell them straight out "Your an idiot". But i've met ALOT more that are normal, nice people.
Zade, you went to a baptist church right? If so, I think that really speaks for itself why you'd say christians are thingys. =P
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MysticalMirror
I'm the reason threads go off topic
Behold The Mystical Mirrors Gaze. [H:1]
Posts: 131
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Post by MysticalMirror on Dec 4, 2005 6:16:53 GMT -5
And I weep that I live where the baptists are in control...And it was because they allot nothing fun that I wasted my youth...d**n YOU WASTED YOUTH
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Post by Avelon on Dec 4, 2005 13:19:37 GMT -5
I'm gonna stay out of the actual debate bit. But to those saying Christians are thingys it's not true. Then a lot of other irrelevant nuts. If you're going to "stay out of the actual debate", then don't post here. I'm disputing what you just said, which is debating, and will continue to do so as long as you continue to be presumptuous and generally wrong. Christians ARE thingys. There are exceptions to every rule, and this is one of them. I've met Christians who are not thingys. No, not "I've met Christians who are thingys". I lived in a small community of Christians. There were 200 kids, from Pre-K to 12th grade, and 4 churches. The town was 5 blocks deep and 8 across. Less than one square mile. The town limits were 4 square miles. There were some really nice people - ususally grandmotherly figures, but they were nice in spite of their religion; not because of it. Of course, if I leave it at that, someone will just tell me I've had an unusually bad experience with Christianity, so... Christians are (usually) not your dad, Jest. Christians are ignorant, and worse yet, ignorant of their own free will. Genesis says 'God created the Heavens and the Earth', but does anyone wonder how? Sure...but do they dare ask? No. Theorize? Hell no; that's almost trying to second guess God! Questioning what you read is ironed out of you as part of the training process. "How did Jesus do that, mommy?" "He just did. And then his daddy gave him some candy for not asking why he should walk on water." To be a Christian is to be hypocritical. I have never, in all my years around Christians, heard one disagree with another. I'll steal Kaleb's wording here: Christians care about image above all else; as long as you go through the motions (bow your head when someone else prays aloud, periodically say 'amen' when someone is preaching, etc.), you're a model Christian. I've said that everyone has their own take on 'God', and I'll now extend that: Everyone has their own opinion on their religion, and every aspect of that religion. As a kid, I'd talk with others my age, and they would freely admit that they don't believe some part of the Bible, or that they got something entirely different out of this chapter or that than the preacher was going on about, yet they were the first to raise their fist skyward and shout 'amen' in the middle of the sermon, and everyone smiled. Christians are immature, to such an extent that it's surprising when you can get a straight answer to a direct question out of them. I will use two well-known members of Jester Loco as examples. No; I'm not saying both are generally immature, but in this regard, yes, they are. Jest and I had a conversation in MSN, which started out dealing with Kaleb's thread "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion", and ended up being a discussion on Christianity. I asked a question that you all are quite familiar with: Avelon says: In Science, the first question asked is 'why'. Assuming for a moment your faith is correct, I'd THINK 'God' would want you to know WHY you believe what you believe. Faith without knowledge has the downside of the logical, mathematical part of your brain never quite being satisfied; never quite believing. Jest said he asked himself 'why' all the time, and that when he did, it built his faith. He then went on to explain (at my request) that he could find the answer to a question in a book or in his father. My response to that: "I don't want to sound rude, but that's not questioning yourself. Your belief. That's questioning the religion, asking why they believe." After more clarification on my part, Jest came out with this: Jest- "http://jest.proboards11.com/index.cgi" says: It's the annoyingly slippery bit that's hard to explain. I grew up around hearing stories of what Gods done in peoples life. Hmmm, but that;s not it either. It's not really any of those, and yet it's all of them. Perhaps it's all mental, made up in my head. All my experiences wrapped up led me to this. and to sumarise them all is rather difficult. That could not be more general or vague if I wrote it myself with the intent of being general and vague. Without really answering my question, he supplied an answer to it, which would make me look like an ass had I continued. And I'd bet my last pair of pants he didn't do it intentionally. Arilan has been doing the same thing over the course of the entire thread; however, she's picked out single points to aim her entire reply at, and ignored the rest. Go on, and see for yourself if you want to. I don't know Arilan as well as Jest, so I'm not going to guess whether or not it was intentional. In short, Arilan has so far immaturely continued to say...whatever it is she's trying to say, without once stopping to tell us why. If you people aren't going to post anything significant, don't argue with people who are. Even flawed reasoning is better than none, because there's a chance you might learn from a mistake, rather than ending up not knowing where you went wrong. Here, I'll be blunt: Those of you arguing with Kaleb and I are wrong. Everything you have said up to this point is wrong. Everything you stand for and everything you believe in is WRONG. Now, tell me why you aren't wrong. Use your imagination for a change.
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