MysticalMirror
I'm the reason threads go off topic
Behold The Mystical Mirrors Gaze. [H:1]
Posts: 131
|
Post by MysticalMirror on Dec 5, 2005 19:07:17 GMT -5
Hmm..I believe I'll take this chance to announce my resignation from JL. Yuo said it yourself the other day AVe. JL is dead and we killed it. I'm all for debating but this is getting pointless and redundant. It's you and Kaleb throwing insults(Whether intentional or not) At Arilan and Jest and anyone who disagrees with you. I've stayed out of it for the most part but Alot of what I've read recently seems rude and cruel. It started out as a simple debate..And has since grown into something different. And since it seems that the forum is not centered around this thread I believe I'll take my leave. I mean no harm by what I say these are merely my observations. It was foolish by Arilan to have started this thread in the first place as it was destined to eventually lead to this. People get pissy and debates go to nuts. As I said before maybe it's unintentional...But still it's what I see. So Farewell.
|
|
|
Post by Kaleb on Dec 5, 2005 19:57:55 GMT -5
I'll admit, neither Ave nor I have been particularly civil near the end here. However, we aren't the only ones, but there's no need to throw accusations about that. I do get angry. There's no denying that. This thread has been basically myself or Ave making something of an offensive, and being greeted with nothing. There's a point or two, perhaps, but nearly everything I've said is unaddressed. I keep hoping that somebody will actually read what I've written, perhaps see one of the points interspersed with snide comments and personal anecdotes. I don't have delusions of grandeur. I don't expect anyone to convert, but hey, if I can encourage someone to think about their beliefs for once, to put aside all of their own biases and just concentrate on what they know and how it applies to what they believe, that would be great. However, all I see is people ignoring everything I've written, writing it off because it doesn't agree with what they've been taught. Of course I get frustrated. So I try using stronger words to get my point across. This doesn't seem to work, so I add even more emphasis. Pretty soon, I've been written off as offensive and insulting. Whatever it takes to avoid really considering what I've said, it seems. As no-one has responded to Ave or I for a couple of days now, I'm inclined to agree with you, that JL is dead. However, I do not feel you can place the blame squarely upon either of us, as you've just done. In fact, if you feel the need to blame someone, blame those who haven't made up for more than half of the posts on JL lately. Whatever the result was, I don't think it was foolish to have this thread: even if we aren't exactly civil, there's at least something we can learn from it, hopefully. I love talking about this, and I've learned a thing or two from it, even now. I'm sad to see it go, but if nobody's gonna defend God, then so be it. Later, Charlee.
|
|
MysticalMirror
I'm the reason threads go off topic
Behold The Mystical Mirrors Gaze. [H:1]
Posts: 131
|
Post by MysticalMirror on Dec 5, 2005 21:12:45 GMT -5
I wasn't placing the blame sqaurly on you and Ave. And I apologize if it seemed that way. I agree with you that noone has really responded to either of you in the correct way to make this debate something of a sucess. And I agree that what a person it taught isn't all there is to it. Alot of people are afraid to venture out and use thier mind as they'll find out negetive things and it will hurt them. They believe perhaps they'll start to question thier faith because of this or that. Honestly I look into pretty much everything I possibly can and try to see things from a different angle. If anything it's strengthed me and given me more conviction to my beliefs. Why do I believe what I believe? Was it becasue it was told to me as a child? Perhaps...Honeslty I believe what I believe because it feels right to me. Because I feel less alone when I go thru my life. Can I prove the exsistance of God? No. Can you prove that God does not exsist? No. Science and relgion are going to the same place...They just don't know it. They strive to answer certin questions..Why are we here and how were we created. Evolution I believe is possible. But as a Christian I'm suppose to ignore it as blasphemy. As saying what God made wasn't perfect in it's first stage. However I see this differently. I believe God created us to adapt to the surroundings that we were placed in hence evolution of sorts. But also I believe if evolution is exsists it exsists more in the mind than in the body. To say we evolved from apes...I find it hard to swallow. On the other hand to say that our brains evolved from primitive thinking to more advanced thinking over the years yes..That I agree with. So in closing...Why do I believe what I believe? I honestly don't know...It's just something I feel...And something I cannot let go of anymore...Because it's come to define me...Even if I am quiet about it most times.
|
|
|
Post by Kaleb on Dec 5, 2005 22:39:43 GMT -5
It's you and Kaleb throwing insults(Whether intentional or not) At Arilan and Jest and anyone who disagrees with you. Yes, you were placing the blame squarely upon us. No need to say you weren't. If you want to apologize for that, great, but no need to hide it. Now, onto the stuff with some substance: You try to look at stuff from a different angle? And this has strengthened your conviction? Alright, fine. I can live with that. How has it done so, and why has it done so? Both Ave and myself have placed huge emphasis on "Why?" but nobody seems to answer. I really suspect this is because none of you have ever truly asked the question. You've got a couple of anecdotes about how it makes you feel less alone. Great. It works for you. But certainly does not suggest that there is a God, not in the least. Don't mistake some sort of emotional dependency on the familiar as evidence towards the existence of the divine. Furthermore, you say you looked at things from a different angle. Sure, this might have its benefits, but the real trick is to put aside your own beliefs entirely, and ponder. Your beliefs have no bearing on the truth whatsoever. Reality doesn't care about your beliefs. Reality doesn't want to perserve your beliefs despite all the evidence. And neither should you.Now you say you can't prove God exists. This is where a critical omission exists. What you forgot to mention is that you also lack any evidence to even suggest that God exists. This is literally belief without reason. Next, you claim I can't disprove God. This is true. However, this speaks far more for my side of the argument than it does for yours, though perhaps you haven't realized it yet. This is one of many reasons that Christianity will never be accepted by science. To be a valid scientific theory, the theory must be supported by evidence and be able to be disproven. Now the next bit, about science and religion being headed in the same direction... I can't help but see this as an insult to scientists all around the world. I have trouble putting this into words, though it is covered in one of my previous posts, either in this thread or in "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.". Perhaps you didn't read it. In any case, I see it as such: Science's goal is to learn. Religion's goal is to know. Sure, the differences might not immediately be apparent, but with a little thought I'm sure you'll grab it. Now, sure, religion offers answers. But that's about as far as the similarity ends. Science, in much less time, has taught man far more truth than religion ever did. But as a Christian I'm suppose to ignore it as blasphemy. Yeah, so... about that. If you want to keep making my case for me, I'm fine with that. I don't even have to say how Christians are closed-minded, they admit it now. Why do I believe what I believe? I honestly don't know...It's just something I feel...And something I cannot let go of anymore...Because it's come to define me...Even if I am quiet about it most times. Well, at least I got an answer. Finally. Not a good one, I guess. Or a good one, if you're coming from my point of view. Even though it hasn't struck you, you've just said that you believe what you do no good reason whatsoever. I'm really not to optimistic, but read what you've written. Think about it. Realize that you've been entirely unable to defend it. If then, you're still sure there's a God/Evolution is a lie of the left/etcetera, then I'm not sure how much else I can do.
|
|
MysticalMirror
I'm the reason threads go off topic
Behold The Mystical Mirrors Gaze. [H:1]
Posts: 131
|
Post by MysticalMirror on Dec 6, 2005 8:58:19 GMT -5
It was never my intention to defend what I believe. You asked a question and I answered it simple as that. You asked why I believe what I believe and I told you why. Whether you see it as a good reason or not doesn't matter to me. People seem to have a dependancy on having people agree with thier opinions and I simply don't care about that. You asked how looking at different things has strengthen my conviction. It shows me that there is room for possibility outside of the strict guidelines that most christians adhere to. Things such as Evolution. I don't believe evolution to be complete lie. Ave said something that I agree with entirely and has been something I've believed for years. "Who said 'God' didn't use evolution as the basis of creation?" That's exactly right. Religioin for years has wanted to see Evolution as blashphemous because they're afraid of the implications. They don't see it as possible that it was something that God did to help us over time. Am I proving your point over and over again? Maybe..Depends if your point is religion is full of nuts. Modernized religion is a plague...It annoys me...And if you merely go by what preachers and so forth say you're not a good Christian...Christians need to realize that without inspection on thier own part thier connection to God will be weak...Jesus said "None May Come To The Father But Through Me" Which tells me I don't need religion to tell me what to do or how to believe. Honestly I don't care if I'm making your points for you...Alot of what you've said about christians I agree with. I don't know if that makes me a bad christian or a good one in that I don't conform to the rules and guidelines made by man. I bow to noone but God. Always has been always will be.
"Yeah, so... about that. If you want to keep making my case for me, I'm fine with that. I don't even have to say how Christians are closed-minded, they admit it now."
Don't assume to think that I'm close-minded because I'm Christian. You should know me better than that...I hold my beliefs over noones head and tell noone they must conform to what I believe or I'll hate them forever.
And now that I've said my piece I believe I'm done with this thread...It won't get anywhere in the end...I can't change you and you can't change me..Simple as that. We can go back and forth till the end of the world and it won't make a difference. Consider yourself the winner of this debate if you'd like..I was never in it to win..Was just expressing my beliefs and opinions as I'm sure you intended on doing the same from the beginning.
|
|
|
Post by Silas on Dec 6, 2005 12:48:59 GMT -5
I think people who view Christians with a single view are close-minded. Not all Christians are "intolerant". In fact, if one was to go as far as to say I am a Christian, I don't bother trying to force my religion on anyone. I was once confronted by this when I was more actively a Christian than I am now (I am a college student now), a guy said to me, "If you are a true Christian, how come you aren't trying to save others?" and it's because you can't save people who are unwilling. If you look back at the Apostles and even Jesus, they knew when they should stop wasting time on people too caught up in their own thoughts already to bother trying to "force" them to become Christian.
And I want to break one thing said,
If you are trying to learn, shouldn't you learn something? And what is it you learn? Knowledge. Point: Religion isn't trying to relearn what has already been shown to them thousands of years ago. And like Jesus told doubting Thomas, blessed are those who believe without seeing (or something along those lines. Can't remember it clearly, but it's essentially saying that those who have faith without having proof are better off) Now, I bet you $20 that Kaleb is going to rip into that saying Christians are naive to believe something without having proof and to think that it makes them better people by doing so. But that's because Kaleb isn't trying to understand, he's a believer of scientist, so he wants to learn. Understanding is for sissies.
All this forum has proven to me is Kaleb and Avelon already think they know the answers of which way in life is 100% right and for Christians to think the same thing is just ludacris of them. And somehow, by insulting everyone and admiting to it, that's just about as much as Kaleb can do to help those of us who don't know what's right because they are clearly wrong. So, I guess I would go as far to say that they are setting double standards for themselves, in which they know the right thing and anyone else who thinks they know the right thing are just being close-minded. Oh, but I am just illogical because I don't know the specific facts of things, so we can just forget everything I said.
|
|
|
Post by Avelon on Dec 6, 2005 16:25:40 GMT -5
There is a subtlety in the wording of an English sentence...and you appear to have missed it in every post Kaleb or I have made. "Christians think ..." isn't fitting everyone of the religion into a stereotype. It's pointing to a belief held by Christianity (is that better?), and thus, surprisingly, USUALLY BY THE MEMBERS OF THAT RELIGION AS WELL! Part of Christianity, as I think (and I COULD be wrong in this) everyone but you in this thread has said, is being close-minded. Dispute it all you want; nobody cares. Religion is about blind faith, close-mindedness, and tithes. Faith, on the other hand, is none of these things. If one MUST use the term 'true Christian', I would not hesitate to point at the man who never goes to church, doesn't read the Bible, but lives a good life and believes in God. "Not all Christians are "intolerant"."? Were you even listening? I will quote myself: First and foremost, I did not say you were intolerant. Intolerance is the difference between me burning a cross on your front lawn and not. Science is why we're sitting on computers, in chairs designed for just this task, arguing over whether or not religion is a valid excuse for ignorance, rather than chasing deer, trying to shove our index fingers up their asses because we don't have tools to hunt. Religion is why you're telling me blind faith is the best kind. Well, I think we're done here. If you believe that, there is NOTHING that I can do or say that you can't just counter with that. So close your eyes and stop reading. Now, for those of us who don't mind the world not being flat... Where's my $20? I'm not Kaleb. You aren't naive. You're flat-out ignorant. Naive would imply you haven't had the opportunity to learn. You're also exceedingly arrogant. "and to think that it makes them better people by doing so" It doesn't make you a better person to believe without proof. It makes you gullible, which, last I knew, was not synonymous to 'Holy', 'superior', or 'better'. Now, I've spoken to Kaleb on MSN about this, and he knows what he's talking about. Both of us used to go to church. Saying that he (and thus myself as well) doesn't understand is like me telling you you don't know what a monkey is. What's wrong with learning? Are you saying you were born with the entire Bible memorized? OH NOES!11 You committed the evil of LEARNING. Wait, the written word is courtesy of cultural advancement! OH NOES!11 The Bible is part of EVIL SCIENCE.* That's pretty sad. You've resorted to using our arguments because your own have failed repeatedly. How very hypocritical of you. (You, personally; not Christianity or Christians, as they are still firmly on their side) So, in order to escape your own words, you'd have to admit that it's quite possible you are wrong. You know, kind of like Kaleb and I both have. HATEFUL personal attacks. =( If you'd read a bit more, you would see that it's me who...well...actually, I didn't insult anyone either. d**n. I came closer to it than Kaleb did, however. If you want help, Silas, all you have to do is ask. We may not be Christians, but we can be good people, too. I think. Does the Bible say otherwise? Correction: We know the LOGICAL thing. Accepting something on blind faith is not logical; I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Everything humanity is is based on logic. Close-minded is not accepting the possibility of being wrong. Since you've obviously missed it EVERY TIME IT'S BEEN SAID, I will repeat myself: I ADMIT I MAY NOT BE RIGHT! I admit there just might be a God. I admit that Christianity might be absolutely correct, and that God did, in fact, do EVERYTHING the Bible said he did. Is that CLEAR enough for you? Do I need to promise to repent if Jesus suddenly appears floating over my house? No worries; I will. But I will say this again, as well: Possibility is outweighed by probability. I hold logic in higher regard than I do a man who centers his entire life around hearsay a hundred times over. No; that makes you ignorant. To be illogical is to not make sense. You've scraped the border a few times, but so far you've managed to make sense. If you want to pull out of the debate, though, I'd be happy to forget everything you've said. *EVIL SCIENCE is not to be confused with GOOD SCIENCE, which allows you to live in the same comfort enjoyed by Kings in the middle ages. Any resemblance between the two is STRICTLY COINCIDENTAL.
|
|
|
Post by Silas on Dec 12, 2005 4:39:53 GMT -5
Big post, I am tired. Now I am going to go sleep.
MODERATED: Please refrain from posting irrelevancies in serious threads. Feel free to sodomise one of Jest's threads with your inane one-liners, but keep out of debates with them. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by Avelon on Dec 13, 2005 5:29:10 GMT -5
Enough. I'm sick of everyone whining because I'm apparently forcing them to read these threads, and in the same breath telling me I'm wrong in both of them. If you want to debate, let's debate. But please, before you do, un-f**k yourself long enough to admit that you might not know everything, and that you might not have all of your facts straight, even if you sincerely believe that you are right.
Thread will be moved to Cemetary on Friday, Dec 16.
|
|